Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

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Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Mahmoud Fayed
[mod - probable spam, but vaguely on-topic, so I've let it through. PJH ]

hi all

  Project : DoubleS (Super Server) Paradigm
  URL     : http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/doublesvsoop
  License : Freeware & Open source
  About   : New programming paradigm replacement for Object Oriented
            Programming (OOP), take in mind (Complex Data Structure,
            Event Driven System,Client-Server...etc) , can be used for
            developing new programming language (PL) 100% without code

This framework enable the programmer to design and implement new
programming language - where this new language will be 100% without
code (Interactive GUI instead of writing code).

this message is invitation for C/C++ programmers to look at the
project site and gives me useful feedback

Greetings,
Mahmoud


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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Thomas Hruska
msfclipper wrote:

> [mod - probable spam, but vaguely on-topic, so I've let it through. PJH ]
>
> hi all
>
>   Project : DoubleS (Super Server) Paradigm
>   URL     : http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/doublesvsoop
>   License : Freeware & Open source
>   About   : New programming paradigm replacement for Object Oriented
>             Programming (OOP), take in mind (Complex Data Structure,
>             Event Driven System,Client-Server...etc) , can be used for
>             developing new programming language (PL) 100% without code
>
> This framework enable the programmer to design and implement new
> programming language - where this new language will be 100% without
> code (Interactive GUI instead of writing code).
>
> this message is invitation for C/C++ programmers to look at the
> project site and gives me useful feedback
>
> Greetings,
> Mahmoud

At some point a person will HAVE to write code because they will reach
the limits of the software.  Either that or your software will turn into
a hairy, unmaintainable beast.  Maybe someday software development will
be point-and-click, but as long as people want to do custom stuff, it
isn't going to happen.

What you seem to want to do has been done before.  It is called RAD
(Rapid Application Development) and the closest I've seen to actual RAD
that works more or less is Delphi.  VB isn't quite RAD (IMO), but it has
a very large following that, amazingly, is a cut-n-paste-n-share coding
community.

The major downside to RAD tools is that, while the _initial_ project is
easy to do, maintenance becomes difficult.  Delphi and VB are great for
quick-n-dirty projects, but if that software becomes something of any
size, you quickly outgrow the RAD tool's capabilities and then you have
to get your hands dirty in ugly auto-generated code or start from
scratch.  What usually happens is a minor change here or there and then
you are stuck using a tool that gets in the way.


I downloaded your documentation and, based on what I see, the app. is
clearly designed by a programmer, not a software developer.  Programmers
may have the best intentions but rarely do they think about how the
end-user is going to interact with the application.  Your dialogs and
GUI are non-standard and the terminology is probably familiar to you but
would be quite confusing to the average user.  You've also made moving
through the environment very difficult with useless message boxes that
have one button and commentary on your dialog titles.

Now this isn't saying that RAD is not useful.  VB, for example, is
really good at doing database stuff with point-n-click ease.  Your main
GUI is already at a 60MB download and it just doesn't seem very useful.
  You need to showcase the tool by showing actual applications being
developed...and I'm not talking about the cheesy "hello world" app.

--
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft President
Ph: 517-803-4197

*NEW* MyTaskFocus 1.1
Get on task.  Stay on task.

http://www.CubicleSoft.com/MyTaskFocus/

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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Brett McCoy-2
On 10/27/07, Thomas Hruska <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Now this isn't saying that RAD is not useful.  VB, for example, is
> really good at doing database stuff with point-n-click ease.  Your main
> GUI is already at a 60MB download and it just doesn't seem very useful.
>   You need to showcase the tool by showing actual applications being
> developed...and I'm not talking about the cheesy "hello world" app.

To be honest, I find high-level scripting tools like Perl and Python
easier to use for prototyping (which is all I have found RAD good for,
rarely ever for production work) than using GUI tools. With something
like Tk or GTK+ bindings for Perl or Python, you can whip out a quick
'n' dirty test pretty quickly. VB, too, although, of course, it's not
cross-platform. :-)

-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
    If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
               -- Jelaleddin Rumi
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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Mahmoud Fayed
In reply to this post by Thomas Hruska
Hi
   
  "At some point a person will HAVE to write code because they will reach
the limits of the software. Either that or your software will turn into
a hairy, unmaintainable beast. Maybe someday software development will
be point-and-click, but as long as people want to do custom stuff, it
isn't going to happen."
   
  This was the case before RPWI Technology which embedded inside  DoubleS Framework
  RPWI (Real/Rapid Programming without Instructions/Code) comes with new tricks that let
  the Programmer/Developer develop any kind of Systems/Applications without limitations using (Programming) without code.
  there are new (16) tricks behind RPWI Technology , these tricks make RPWI Technology full solution for programming , no need to return to the code again.
   
  "What you seem to want to do has been done before. It is called RAD
(Rapid Application Development) and the closest I've seen to actual RAD
that works more or less is Delphi. VB isn't quite RAD (IMO), but it has
a very large following that, amazingly, is a cut-n-paste- n-share coding
community."
  i studied RAD and used it before inviting the RPWI Technology, i know about
  ------------------------------------------------
  1 - Code Bank
  2 - Code Generator
  3 - Wizard
  4 - Designers
  5 - Interactive IDE
  6 - Reusable Framework
  7 - Package
  8 - Template
  9 - Components
  10- Triggers
  ------------------------------------------------
  RPWI Technology is not any of them.
   
 
"The major downside to RAD tools is that, while the _initial_ project is
easy to do, maintenance becomes difficult. Delphi and VB are great for
quick-n-dirty projects, but if that software becomes something of any
size, you quickly outgrow the RAD tool's capabilities and then you have
to get your hands dirty in ugly auto-generated code or start from
scratch. What usually happens is a minor change here or there and then
you are stuck using a tool that gets in the way."
Yes, i agree with you.
 
"I downloaded your documentation and, based on what I see, the app. is
clearly designed by a programmer, not a software developer"
  Yes, i am programmer , familar with developer tools.
   
  " Programmers may have the best intentions but rarely do they think about how the
end-user is going to interact with the application."
  The user of my framework should be (Programmer) or (Developer) - and should know much
  about the new though before using it (Learning curve is high - because the though is new, so new)
   
  "Your dialogs and GUI are non-standard and the terminology is probably familiar to you but
would be quite confusing to the average user."
  it's expected that the terminology will be quite confusing to the average user - because all of
  the terminology are *new* - with differnet meaning that may be expected , it's reccommended that the user should read about the new (Thought - Tricks - Terminology) before trying to do anything using the framework
   
   
  " You've also made moving through the environment very difficult with useless message boxes that have one button and commentary on your dialog titles."
  fixing like this problems will done by the time , through framework users feedback
 
"Now this isn't saying that RAD is not useful. VB, for example, is
really good at doing database stuff with point-n-click ease."
  my framework - not new RAD tool, it's ESP (Easy Software Programming) tool
   
   
  " Your main GUI is already at a 60MB download and it just doesn't seem very useful.
You need to showcase the tool by showing actual applications being
developed... and I'm not talking about the cheesy "hello world" app."
  The usage of my framework is not to develop new applications directly.
  The usage of my framework is to develop new programming language of new generation
  (Interactive Language - based on Programming without coding)
  Then you can also use the framework to test the developed language through developing application using it.
   
  Interactive Languages that are based on programming without coding, is not limited, and it's not more that GUI for a programming language that we know like (C/C++,C#,Java,Python,VB,VFP,xHarbour,Delphi,...etc)
  This GUI are in Human Language (English,French,Arabic,..etc)
   
  Programmer/Developer --->  GUI (Human Language)  ---> Interactive Language -----> Programming language(Code) ----> Compiler -----> Linker ------> Machine Language (Executable or Library)
   
  Instead of using Code Editor  to write code, we uses a Goal Designer to develop applicationg using programming without coding
   
  Goal Designer, Remove all the limitations and let us do what we want to do , without restrictions
   
  Goal is a replacement for (Source code File / Procedure / Function / Block of code) in programming thorugh writing code.
   
  each Goal is a group of steps while each step may contain one or group of sub steps.
  i.e. Goal is represented through Steps Tree.
   
  the Step in programming without coding - represent one line , or block of code in programming through code
   
  instead if writing step code, you select it through interaction with interactive language (developed using the framework), this interactive language can represent all the features avaiable by the programming langauge , like Data Strucutre,Control Stucture,Programming Paradigm(Strucutre Programming & OOP), Functions & Classes
   
  You can control the flow of program , through controlling the Steps tree.
   
  after the generation of code, that is releated to a step, you don't need to look at this code, because beside , the generation of the code, a block of information (human lanuage) describes the purpose of that code are generated  too
   
  this was quick idea demonstrates how RPWI Technology provide programming without coding without any limitations or restrictions
   
  Greetings,
  Mahmoud
   
   
   
   
 
 

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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Thomas Hruska
MAHMOUD SAMIR wrote:

> Hi
>    
>   "At some point a person will HAVE to write code because they will reach
> the limits of the software. Either that or your software will turn into
> a hairy, unmaintainable beast. Maybe someday software development will
> be point-and-click, but as long as people want to do custom stuff, it
> isn't going to happen."
>    
>   This was the case before RPWI Technology which embedded inside  DoubleS Framework
>   RPWI (Real/Rapid Programming without Instructions/Code) comes with new tricks that let
>   the Programmer/Developer develop any kind of Systems/Applications without limitations using (Programming) without code.
>   there are new (16) tricks behind RPWI Technology , these tricks make RPWI Technology full solution for programming , no need to return to the code again.
>    
>   "What you seem to want to do has been done before. It is called RAD
> (Rapid Application Development) and the closest I've seen to actual RAD
> that works more or less is Delphi. VB isn't quite RAD (IMO), but it has
> a very large following that, amazingly, is a cut-n-paste- n-share coding
> community."
>   i studied RAD and used it before inviting the RPWI Technology, i know about
>   ------------------------------------------------
>   1 - Code Bank
>   2 - Code Generator
>   3 - Wizard
>   4 - Designers
>   5 - Interactive IDE
>   6 - Reusable Framework
>   7 - Package
>   8 - Template
>   9 - Components
>   10- Triggers
>   ------------------------------------------------
>   RPWI Technology is not any of them.

Uh huh.  Allow me to be the skeptic.  At some point someone, somewhere
will have to write code.  If you plan for every possible scenario in
advance, your application will become an unwieldy, hairy beast.


> "I downloaded your documentation and, based on what I see, the app. is
> clearly designed by a programmer, not a software developer"
>   Yes, i am programmer , familar with developer tools.

And you just completely missed the point.  Let me put this in simpler
terms:  Programmers != Software developers.  You are clearly a programmer.


>   " Programmers may have the best intentions but rarely do they think about how the
> end-user is going to interact with the application."
>   The user of my framework should be (Programmer) or (Developer) - and should know much
>   about the new though before using it (Learning curve is high - because the though is new, so new)

You won't get many takers.


>   "Your dialogs and GUI are non-standard and the terminology is probably familiar to you but
> would be quite confusing to the average user."
>   it's expected that the terminology will be quite confusing to the average user - because all of
>   the terminology are *new* - with differnet meaning that may be expected , <snip>

And you, once again, missed the point.


>   " You've also made moving through the environment very difficult with useless message boxes that have one button and commentary on your dialog titles."
>   fixing like this problems will done by the time , through framework users feedback
>  
> "Now this isn't saying that RAD is not useful. VB, for example, is
> really good at doing database stuff with point-n-click ease."
>   my framework - not new RAD tool, it's ESP (Easy Software Programming) tool

Let me reiterate:  At some point someone, somewhere WILL have to write code.


>   " Your main GUI is already at a 60MB download and it just doesn't seem very useful.
> You need to showcase the tool by showing actual applications being
> developed... and I'm not talking about the cheesy "hello world" app."
>   The usage of my framework is not to develop new applications directly.
>   The usage of my framework is to develop new programming language of new generation
>   (Interactive Language - based on Programming without coding)
>   Then you can also use the framework to test the developed language through developing application using it.
>    
>   Interactive Languages that are based on programming without coding, is not limited, and it's not more that GUI for a programming language that we know like (C/C++,C#,Java,Python,VB,VFP,xHarbour,Delphi,...etc)
>   This GUI are in Human Language (English,French,Arabic,..etc)
>    
>   Programmer/Developer --->  GUI (Human Language)  ---> Interactive Language -----> Programming language(Code) ----> Compiler -----> Linker ------> Machine Language (Executable or Library)

You do realize programming using "human language" has been attempted
before.  It was called COBOL.


>   Instead of using Code Editor  to write code, we uses a Goal Designer to develop applicationg using programming without coding
>    
>   Goal Designer, Remove all the limitations and let us do what we want to do , without restrictions

So...if I told your tool I want the goal to be 'to conquer and rule the
galaxy', will it automatically generate the necessary computer program
to do it?

--
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft President
Ph: 517-803-4197

*NEW* MyTaskFocus 1.1
Get on task.  Stay on task.

http://www.CubicleSoft.com/MyTaskFocus/

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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Mahmoud Fayed
Hi
   
  "So...if I told your tool I want the goal to be 'to conquer and rule the
galaxy', will it automatically generate the necessary computer program
to do it?"
 
Not like this, my framework is not magic
  The base idea behind my framework
  programmer have though , he write code to implement his though
  but i presented differnt way , to implement the though
  - this way is interaction with GUI , instead of writing code
   
  For Example
  the Microsoft Windows GUI is replacement for Dos Command line
  here i present GUI replacement for the code
   
  But the GUI provide programming langauge features (This features is finite & limited, but can be extended by the programmer)
   
  so developing GUI For a programming langauge is possible, and developing any software using this GUI is more easy than writing code.
   
  Note. the human language presented through the GUI , just for see, you don't write it
  also the human language may be more clear through pictures.
   
  Greetings
  Mahmoud
   
   
   


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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Nico Heinze
--- In [hidden email], MAHMOUD SAMIR <msfclipper@...> wrote:

>
> Hi
>    
>   "So...if I told your tool I want the goal to be 'to
> conquer and rule the galaxy', will it automatically
> generate the necessary computer program to do it?"
>  
> Not like this, my framework is not magic
>   The base idea behind my framework
>   programmer have though , he write code to implement
>   his thought
>   but i presented differnt way , to implement the though
>   - this way is interaction with GUI , instead of writing code
>    
>   For Example
>   the Microsoft Windows GUI is replacement for Dos Command line
>   here i present GUI replacement for the code
<snip>

O.k., I have to admit that I have not yet downloaded and installed
your framework. I don't have much free time, unfortunately.

So what I would like to see from you (in order to convince ME to try
your framework) is one thing: please describe in plain text how you
would implement the following task in your framework; with as much
technical detail as necessary.

The task is:
"There's a table called EMPLOYEES in a DB2 database under AIX. There's
a table named DEPARTMENTS in an Oracle database under Solaris. And
finally there's a table named GROSS_REVENUE stored in a MS SQLServer
table.
Combine the data from all three tables such that the output of the
program contains:
- name of every department,
- total revenue generated by all programmers in
  this dept.
Keep in mind that departments are stored in a hierarchical manner.
"
[end of task description]

This is a real-life task of the kind I have to do not every day but
quite often. Please describe me how you would approach this task using
your framework; this is much more convincing to me than to try it
myself because I simply don't have the time to learn your framework
completely before trying it.

Deal?

Regards,
Nico

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Re: Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Mahmoud Fayed
hi
   
  >> So what I would like to see from you (in order to convince ME to try

>> your framework) is one thing: please describe in plain text how you
>> would implement the following task in your framework; with as much
>>technical detail as necessary.
>>
>>The task is:
>>"There's a table called EMPLOYEES in a DB2 database under AIX. There's
>>a table named DEPARTMENTS in an Oracle database under Solaris. And
>>finally there's a table named GROSS_REVENUE stored in a MS SQLServer
>>table.
>>Combine the data from all three tables such that the output of the
>>program contains:
>>- name of every department,
>>- total revenue generated by all programmers in
>>this dept.
>>Keep in mind that departments are stored in a hierarchical manner.
>>"
>>[end of task description]

  ok, solving this problem (task) in programming without coding means that we should
  1 - Design High Level RPWI (Real/Rapid Programming without Instructions) Package
  2 - Implementation of the RPWI Package
  3 - Testing it, to make sure that everything done well
  4 - resuing it again and again as much as we need
   
  High Level RPWI Package means developing GUI that can be used without understanding the programming language syntax and rules, and interaction with this GUI gives results that do something (Goal) we want.
   
  Designing High Level RPWI Package (Design start from what we want , not what we can do) is an art, and solutions differ from one to another
   
  So i will give you a solution, but you can present another one , and so on.
   
  [1] - the first step in designing High Level RPWI Package , is to determine the *logical sequence* that you uses to solve the problem
  in our task , for example, i will put the following logical squence
     0 -  Create Connections to differnet data sources
     1 -  Set state = firstdepartment (first record) = our first root
     2 -  use our Connection to Oracle Database
     3 -  Create view from Department table to get the department record by (state)
       3.1 - Start Scan (Record by Record) in our view
           3.1.1 - Use our Connection to DB2 Database
           3.1.2 - Create view from Employees table to get all employees from our department
           3.1.3 - Start Scan (Record by Record) in our view
                3.1.3.1 - Connect to MS SQL Server Database
                3.1.3.2 -  create view from GROSS_REVENUE  table for selected dep & emp
                3.1.3.3 - print/store program output on screen/file/printer
          3.1.4 - update the cursor (for scan)
          3.1.5 - Continue/End scan as required
       3.2 - update the state to point to the next department in  the hierarchical strucutre
       3.3 - Continue/End scan as required
    4 - Clear Views
    5 - Close Connections
    6 - Return to caller
  [2] the second step is to write a real code for each step written about in the  logical sequence
  [3] for each real code in step [2], let the parameters (variables/attributes) away from operations (commands,functions & methods)
     i.e. X without F(X)
     for example printf(" hello \n");
       F(X) = printf("hello \n");
       x = "hello \n"     f = printf(  );
  [4] for each x without f(x) in step [3] , design an interactive pages (GUI) in human language that let us determine only X without bothering about F()
  the interactive page designed using Interaction Designer
  [5] for step [3] and step[4] - write a code mask  *script* that work as junction between the GUI and the generated code
  this process done using Transporter Designer
  [6] for step [1] write a code mask *script* that generates the steps tree automatically
  this process done using Transporter Designer
  [7] design domain tree which can be used to access all the designed components
  this process done using Domain Tree Manager
  [8] install components into our domain tree
  this process done using Component Installer
   
   
  To use Designers & to write Code Mask Script , you need to study the framework documentation.
  ___________________________
  Time Required to do all of that  :
          Design          : 2 hours at max.
          Development : 1 hour at max.
          Testing         : 15 min. at max
          Usage          : 3 min at max.
  ___________________________
   
  Greetings,
  Mahmoud

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Re: Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Thomas Hruska
In reply to this post by Nico Heinze
Nico Heinze wrote:

> --- In [hidden email], MAHMOUD SAMIR <msfclipper@...> wrote:
>> Hi
>>    
>>   "So...if I told your tool I want the goal to be 'to
>> conquer and rule the galaxy', will it automatically
>> generate the necessary computer program to do it?"
>>  
>> Not like this, my framework is not magic
>>   The base idea behind my framework
>>   programmer have though , he write code to implement
>>   his thought
>>   but i presented differnt way , to implement the though
>>   - this way is interaction with GUI , instead of writing code
>>    
>>   For Example
>>   the Microsoft Windows GUI is replacement for Dos Command line
>>   here i present GUI replacement for the code
> <snip>
>
> O.k., I have to admit that I have not yet downloaded and installed
> your framework. I don't have much free time, unfortunately.
>
> So what I would like to see from you (in order to convince ME to try
> your framework) is one thing: please describe in plain text how you
> would implement the following task in your framework; with as much
> technical detail as necessary.
>
> The task is:
> "There's a table called EMPLOYEES in a DB2 database under AIX. There's
> a table named DEPARTMENTS in an Oracle database under Solaris. And
> finally there's a table named GROSS_REVENUE stored in a MS SQLServer
> table.
> Combine the data from all three tables such that the output of the
> program contains:
> - name of every department,
> - total revenue generated by all programmers in
>   this dept.
> Keep in mind that departments are stored in a hierarchical manner.
> "
> [end of task description]
>
> This is a real-life task of the kind I have to do not every day but
> quite often. Please describe me how you would approach this task using
> your framework; this is much more convincing to me than to try it
> myself because I simply don't have the time to learn your framework
> completely before trying it.
>
> Deal?
>
> Regards,
> Nico

Nico, the task seems to be lacking a bit of information.  I can guess
what 'employees' and 'departments' contains but 'gross_revenue' might
need a little more explanation as to how that table works in relation to
the other two tables.

And, while it doesn't really pertain to the problem, do you really have
this stuff spanned across three different RDBMS'?  How did that
disastrous mess come about?

--
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft President
Ph: 517-803-4197

*NEW* MyTaskFocus 1.1
Get on task.  Stay on task.

http://www.CubicleSoft.com/MyTaskFocus/

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Re: Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Brett McCoy-2
On 10/28/07, Thomas Hruska <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And, while it doesn't really pertain to the problem, do you really have
> this stuff spanned across three different RDBMS'?  How did that
> disastrous mess come about?

I've worked with government data that is more or less like this... or
getting three sets of data dumps to correlate into something useful,
and each one being in a different format (I ended up learning Perl
because of the latter, because it was much easier for munging wacko
text data formats than C++).

-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
    If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
               -- Jelaleddin Rumi
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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Thomas Hruska
In reply to this post by Mahmoud Fayed
MAHMOUD SAMIR wrote:
> Hi
>    
>   "So...if I told your tool I want the goal to be 'to conquer and rule the
> galaxy', will it automatically generate the necessary computer program
> to do it?"
>  
> Not like this, my framework is not magic

But you said that there are no limits.  Unlimited.  That implies that it
should be able to do anything and everything and then some.  That
includes, but is not limited to, conquering and ruling the galaxy.


If you can't tell, I'm picking on you in a friendly/jesting manner.  But
in all seriousness, you really should be careful what you say to other
people who won't be nearly as gentle.  You are basically promising
people the effective equivalent of snake oil.  I personally call it
"pulling a Microsoft".  If you say your tool is "unlimited", then that
means I can "conquer and rule the galaxy" with that tool.  Choose your
words carefully _especially_ since you aren't aware of all the nuances
of the English language.


Now that you've started to come down to earth, develop Nico's
application entirely within the bounds of your tool WITHOUT writing a
single line of code.  You seem to claim it can be done.  So show us.
The ball here is entirely in your court and you can't talk your way out
now that you've talked your way in.  I expect to see a set of
step-by-step directions to follow, or, preferably use a tool like
CamStudio to record the entire process, crop the video with VirtualDub,
and upload the result.  Screenshots of development tools rarely do justice.

--
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft President
Ph: 517-803-4197

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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Mahmoud Fayed
hi Thomas
   
  "conquering and ruling the galaxy."
at first i understanded from that words, that you ask if my framework will understand anything like a hum , so i said it;s not magic
   
  I opened the dictionary to understand the meanning of this words
   conquering and ruling the galaxy = Win & Controlling every thing in the software environment
   
  Yes, you can do that using my framework , because the power of programming without coding using RPWI Technology = the power of code , but wil less pain
   
  Greetings,
  Mahmoud

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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Thomas Hruska
MAHMOUD SAMIR wrote:

> hi Thomas
>    
>   "conquering and ruling the galaxy."
> at first i understanded from that words, that you ask if my framework will understand anything like a hum , so i said it;s not magic
>    
>   I opened the dictionary to understand the meanning of this words
>    conquering and ruling the galaxy = Win & Controlling every thing in the software environment
>    
>   Yes, you can do that using my framework , because the power of programming without coding using RPWI Technology = the power of code , but wil less pain
>    
>   Greetings,
>   Mahmoud

Time to move to America.  Just because you speak/write English does NOT
mean you will ever comprehend its nuances.  You have to live in a
country for several years to grasp subtle meanings.  I highly recommend
reading "The Day After Tomorrow" by Robert Heinlein (also known as the
Sixth Column).  Even I, a natural-born American, have trouble reading
the section where Ardmore declares a jail break using 100% pure slang.

In other words, I _literally_ meant conquering and ruling the
galaxy...and I meant it in jest.  I already knew your program could not
do that THEREFORE your choice of words was wrong.  Hence the reason I
said you need to choose your words carefully.

--
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft President
Ph: 517-803-4197

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Re: Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Thomas Hruska
In reply to this post by Mahmoud Fayed
MAHMOUD SAMIR wrote:

> hi
>    
>   >> So what I would like to see from you (in order to convince ME to try
>>> your framework) is one thing: please describe in plain text how you
>>> would implement the following task in your framework; with as much
>>> technical detail as necessary.
>>>
>>> The task is:
>>> "There's a table called EMPLOYEES in a DB2 database under AIX. There's
>>> a table named DEPARTMENTS in an Oracle database under Solaris. And
>>> finally there's a table named GROSS_REVENUE stored in a MS SQLServer
>>> table.
>>> Combine the data from all three tables such that the output of the
>>> program contains:
>>> - name of every department,
>>> - total revenue generated by all programmers in
>>> this dept.
>>> Keep in mind that departments are stored in a hierarchical manner.
>>> "
>>> [end of task description]
>
>   ok, solving this problem (task) in programming without coding means that we should
>   1 - Design High Level RPWI (Real/Rapid Programming without Instructions) Package
>   2 - Implementation of the RPWI Package
>   3 - Testing it, to make sure that everything done well
>   4 - resuing it again and again as much as we need
>    
>   High Level RPWI Package means developing GUI that can be used without understanding the programming language syntax and rules, and interaction with this GUI gives results that do something (Goal) we want.
>    
>   Designing High Level RPWI Package (Design start from what we want , not what we can do) is an art, and solutions differ from one to another
>    
>   So i will give you a solution, but you can present another one , and so on.
>    
>   [1] - the first step in designing High Level RPWI Package , is to determine the *logical sequence* that you uses to solve the problem
>   in our task , for example, i will put the following logical squence
>      0 -  Create Connections to differnet data sources
>      1 -  Set state = firstdepartment (first record) = our first root
>      2 -  use our Connection to Oracle Database
>      3 -  Create view from Department table to get the department record by (state)
>        3.1 - Start Scan (Record by Record) in our view
>            3.1.1 - Use our Connection to DB2 Database
>            3.1.2 - Create view from Employees table to get all employees from our department
>            3.1.3 - Start Scan (Record by Record) in our view
>                 3.1.3.1 - Connect to MS SQL Server Database
>                 3.1.3.2 -  create view from GROSS_REVENUE  table for selected dep & emp
>                 3.1.3.3 - print/store program output on screen/file/printer
>           3.1.4 - update the cursor (for scan)
>           3.1.5 - Continue/End scan as required
>        3.2 - update the state to point to the next department in  the hierarchical strucutre
>        3.3 - Continue/End scan as required
>     4 - Clear Views
>     5 - Close Connections
>     6 - Return to caller
>   [2] the second step is to write a real code for each step written about in the  logical sequence

Aha!  Snake oil.  You DO have to write code at some point.  And probably
for each language you want to export to as well.  Exactly what I was
hoping you would admit.  The above sentence is completely contradictory
to the subject line of this whole thread.

Another major problem I see with your tool is it only will work with
sequential programming.  Event-driven programming paradigms are
difficult to impossible to implement with your tool.

The main problem for people like me is we use Safe C++ methodologies
when developing software.  I've already done what your tool does within
C++.  Segmenting my code into base library and application layers is one
of the best things I've ever done.  This approach makes your tool useless.

--
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft President
Ph: 517-803-4197

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Re: Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Mahmoud Fayed
hi Mr. Thomas Hruska
 
"Aha! Snake oil. You DO have to write code at some point. And probably
for each language you want to export to as well. Exactly what I was
hoping you would admit. The above sentence is completely contradictory
to the subject line of this whole thread."
  Not at all, please note that
  1 - we use the framework to develop new interactive programming languages (RPWI   Package)
       This stage , of course requires code, because we build new environment about already
       established environments.
  2 - The Interactive languages (RPWI Packages) are 100% without code
        This is what i talk about
  The Trick : We can develop RPWI Package - to present all the features presented by the programming language (Data Strucutre,Control Structure,Programming Paradigm,Functions,Classes,.....etc)
  Then we uses this RPWI Packages without writing code at all.
   
  "Another major problem I see with your tool is it only will work with
sequential programming. Event-driven programming paradigms are
difficult to impossible to implement with your tool."
  before working in my programming without coding project - i worked five (5) years in developing Event-Driven System OOP GUI management system (Movable Windows,Icons,Multi Level Menus & GUI Widgets) - 17,000 lines of complex code is written
           http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/fglib
  Like this complex system can be developed using programming wihout code
  and also Event-Driven applications,
        Event code = Goal steps
 
"The main problem for people like me is we use Safe C++ methodologies
when developing software. I've already done what your tool does within
C++. Segmenting my code into base library and application layers is one
of the best things I've ever done. This approach makes your tool useless."
  as i said, the framework is a tool to build the interactive languages - this process requires coding , but using interactive languages doesn't require that.
   
   
  Greetings,
  Mahmoud
 
 

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Re: Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Thomas Hruska
MAHMOUD SAMIR wrote:

> hi Mr. Thomas Hruska
>  
> "Aha! Snake oil. You DO have to write code at some point. And probably
> for each language you want to export to as well. Exactly what I was
> hoping you would admit. The above sentence is completely contradictory
> to the subject line of this whole thread."
>   Not at all, please note that
>   1 - we use the framework to develop new interactive programming languages (RPWI   Package)
>        This stage , of course requires code, because we build new environment about already
>        established environments.

Because you are not providing an already developed code base for people
to work with, that _ultimately_ translates into the fact that they have
to write code.  Your "framework" is therefore just a bunch of
unnecessary mental organization layers.  That is what code folding and
well placed comments are for.  People still end up having to write code.
  And there are serious limitations with your tool as well such as the
ability to easily debug the code that people write.

Let me make this clear:  NO ONE...and I literally mean NO ONE will use
your framework until YOU write every possible piece of code anyone could
ever possibly need.  ONLY THEN can you claim no code needs to be written
ever again.  NOT before then.  Don't make claims that aren't true.  As
of the date of this writing, your claims of not having to write any code
are NOT TRUE.  Period.  From my perspective you are lying.  Lying is a
terrible marketing tactic.


>   2 - The Interactive languages (RPWI Packages) are 100% without code
>         This is what i talk about

You are just talking about the high-level stuff that comments are made
of.  Pointless and useless.  According to YOU, people still have to
write the code at the lower layers to get the upper layers to work.  The
Safe C++ library and application layer methodologies are all a software
developer needs (and, IMO, are a far superior approach).  The extra
stuff your app. adds basically equate to folded functions in one-line
comments.


Nico seemed interested in your product.  I'd love to know what he thinks
now that you have stated he'll have to write code for every aspect of
database access for three different database products.

--
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft President
Ph: 517-803-4197

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Re: Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Mahmoud Fayed
hi Thomas
   
  It's clear that you are true , Thanks for helpful feedback
  At this time (current status of the project)
   
  Project Goal : Programming without coding
  Stages : 1 - Programming Paradigm (Done)  - 16 months
               2 - RPWI Technology (Done)          - 3 months
               3 - RPWI Packages (In Progress)  
   
  The good new is that developing RPWI Package is very easy using RPWI Technology that is embedded inside DoubleS Framework.
   
  Stages 1 & 2 was my job
  Stage 3 is based on *art* more than science and experience so
  it is community job , but i will help with my team in this stage
   
  Note:
   
  Programming without coding is progress in software development domain, and it's known that we can ignore the progress if we like, but when we accept the progress , our life will be more easy.
  the old new : we can live without (programming without coding)
  the new new : we can live without coding
   
  Greetings,
  Mahmoud
   

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Re: Programming without code using DoubleS Framework for C/C++

Nico Heinze
In reply to this post by Thomas Hruska
--- In [hidden email], Thomas Hruska <thruska@...> wrote:
>
<anip>
> Nico seemed interested in your product. I'd love to know
> what he thinks now that you have stated he'll have to
> write code for every aspect of database access for three
> different database products.

Although Brett has indicated that such things can happen in real life,
I have to admit that I have built this sample out of interest, not out
of real-life need. Nonetheless the responses were really instructive.
To me it seems as if this framework is more a framework of thoughts
than a real product by now (I leave out the aspects of robustness etc.
intently).

In other words: if it were a complete product where all necessary
low-level code already had been written, I would take the time to
analyse and try this approach. But as things are I see neither the
need nor much benefit in trying yet another terminology and high-level
approach; my real-life approaches may be lacking the systematics
behind, but I can easily live with that.

So at this point I only can say a big THANK YOU! You (Thomas and
Mahmoud) saved me quite some time by stilling my curiosity. And I do
NOT mean this ironically in any way.

Thanks and regards,
Nico